Hitler of Iran Speaks at UN

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zappa
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Post by zappa » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:30 pm

dox wrote:When did we decide free speech was bad? People can say whatever the hell they want, no?
Free speech is conditional. It isnt a suicide pact in which anything goes. In the USA, we make the rules like you make the rules in your home. It is time for the UN to find a new home in another country. That new home could be in a country where there are many enlightned people who think President Bush is a prick or who don't really disagree with anything that Ahmadimejad said.

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Post by RingoCalamity » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:38 pm

Because everyone should agree with everybody else, right? I mean, if someone at the UN, or most of the UN, should disagree with the US, they should take their frickin' ball and go home.

Because that, after all, is what diplomacy is all about.

It's funny though Zappa, you and Hugo Chavez both agree that the UN should be moved out of the US.

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Post by zappa » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:55 pm

RingoCalamity wrote:Because everyone should agree with everybody else, right? I mean, if someone at the UN, or most of the UN, should disagree with the US, they should take their frickin' ball and go home.

Because that, after all, is what diplomacy is all about.

It's funny though Zappa, you and Hugo Chavez both agree that the UN should be moved out of the US.
Ringo, then you agree that the UN should find a new host to live off of? How about your country?

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Post by RingoCalamity » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:02 pm

I think it's fine where it is, but if Canada were to get it, that'd be a feather in our cap.

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Post by dox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:05 pm

zappa wrote:Free speech is conditional. It isnt a suicide pact in which anything goes.
So exactly which conditions of 'free' speech have been broken within the context of this discussion?
Ringo wrote:Anyway, my opinion, the guy's all talk. Let him talk. If he really is a danger, he's not hiding the fact, and sooner or later the world will see enough that they'll decide that he has to be dealt with - or not.
The above quote still stands as the most balanced and backed-up statement in this regard.

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Post by zappa » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:27 pm

dox wrote:
zappa wrote:Free speech is conditional. It isnt a suicide pact in which anything goes.
So exactly which conditions of 'free' speech have been broken within the context of this discussion?
Ringo wrote:Anyway, my opinion, the guy's all talk. Let him talk. If he really is a danger, he's not hiding the fact, and sooner or later the world will see enough that they'll decide that he has to be dealt with - or not.
The above quote still stands as the most balanced and backed-up statement in this regard.
Talk isn't always cheap. It is a good thing when facists display how they think in public. Waiting to see what could happen later, may be to late.

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Post by dox » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:38 pm

The word "fascist" (or "fascism") is sometimes used to denigrate persons, institutions or groups that would not describe themselves as fascist and that do not fall within the formal definition of the word. As a political epithet it has been applied to persons and groups on the extreme left, the extreme right and most points in between.

Until you come up with something more concrete I'm gonna have to use the I'm rubber you're glue standpoint. Devil's advocate: How is the current American administration not fascist?

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Post by zappa » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:15 am

dox wrote:The word "fascist" (or "fascism") is sometimes used to denigrate persons, institutions or groups that would not describe themselves as fascist and that do not fall within the formal definition of the word. As a political epithet it has been applied to persons and groups on the extreme left, the extreme right and most points in between.

Until you come up with something more concrete I'm gonna have to use the I'm rubber you're glue standpoint. Devil's advocate: How is the current American administration not fascist?
It does't consider one class of citizens superior to another based on race, creed, or origin. How is the current Canadian administration not facist?

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Post by RingoCalamity » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:35 am

Now, admittedly, this is only one guy's definition, and he's probably a lefty wingnut who had the current US administration in mind when he wrote it. I got it from Wikipedia.
A recent definition is that by former Columbia University Professor Robert O. Paxton:

* "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [4]

Paxton further defines fascism's essence as:

* "1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one’s group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign `contamination."
The second part of the definition seems quite apt.

Now, I don't think the US is a fascist state. I don't think Canada's one either. The US can seem to be sliding that way because things are so polarized right now and because of some of the rhetoric being tossed out there to keep people scared, but as we may soon see in the midterm elections, things can still slide back the other way as well.

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Post by dox » Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:50 am

Exactly. This is why throwin' around "fascist" strikes me as silly..

zappa
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Post by zappa » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:31 pm

dox wrote:Exactly. This is why throwin' around "fascist" strikes me as silly..
It's not silly to be specific about someone. ie. facist. Just like its not silly to use democrat or republican.

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Post by wyldman » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:02 pm

RingoCalamity wrote:Now, admittedly, this is only one guy's definition, and he's probably a lefty wingnut who had the current US administration in mind when he wrote it. I got it from Wikipedia.
A recent definition is that by former Columbia University Professor Robert O. Paxton:

* "Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion." [4]

Paxton further defines fascism's essence as:

* "1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one’s group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign `contamination."
The second part of the definition seems quite apt.

Now, I don't think the US is a fascist state. I don't think Canada's one either. The US can seem to be sliding that way because things are so polarized right now and because of some of the rhetoric being tossed out there to keep people scared, but as we may soon see in the midterm elections, things can still slide back the other way as well.
wtf?

You obviously don't live here. Don't believe everything you read or hear in the news. Things do get a little weird around election time but somehow we get through it with out civil war (so far).

Plus why all the Bush hate? If my president has his best advisers telling him this country has nuclear weapons and are going to use them against us he god damn well better do something about it. Besides building and supporting terrorist training camps puts him on my list in the first place.(Hussein).

p.s. The U.N. is a dickless , useless, biassed entity.

And I have to go with kfirush on this one. He's a TERRORIST. He wants to kill ALL the infedels! That means you unless your islamic.

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Post by Atlas » Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:21 pm

dox wrote:So exactly which conditions of 'free' speech have been broken within the context of this discussion?
The part where you missed "America is the greatest country in the land" at the beginning and end of each sentence.

America is the greatest country in the landAnyways, if Ahmadinejad can't talk at the U.N., the U.S. shouldn't be allowed eitherAmerica is the greatest country in the land.

America is the greatest country in the landI'm totally with Dox on this one, America is turning so Red (yeah, yeah, I know, use your imagination), it's making Castro back down in shameAmerica is the greatest country in the land.
wyldman wrote:Don't believe everything you read or hear in the news.
Take your own advice, Wyld.

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Post by wyldman » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:01 pm

lol Yea I know I'm just a victim of propaganda. But as far as I know I woke up this morning and didn't have to deal with any fascist out my front door.

Also remind me to wake up a bit before I join in on any internet discussion of politics. (silly me)

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Post by wyldman » Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:20 pm

Here's a link to his speech if anyone is interested.

http://www.president.ir/eng/ahmadinejad ... x-e.htm#b2

Pretty nice speech imo but I think he needs to read a little bit more history. And I'm sure the US is the only reason there is no peace in Iraq seeing as how we're the ones who let the trouble makers out.

I still want to find where he's calling for death to the infidels. Ironic to me is Islam and Christians worship the same god

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