Mandatory fingerprinting of UK pub patrons? WTF?!

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Holyman
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Post by Holyman » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:46 am

Gwent and Nottingham police have also shown an interest, while Taunton, a town neighbouring Yeovil, is discussing the installation of fingerprint systems in 10 pubs and clubs with the systems supplier CreativeCode.
thank god my city is doing this, the amount of stabbings/shootings/fights in bars in my city is stupidly high (stabbings and shootings are probably higher than london) and if this helps stop people doing this, then why shouldn't it be allowed and what is so wrong about giving your finger prints away isn't it the same as showing your license to someone?

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Post by RingoCalamity » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:17 am

Why is it even okay to have to show your license to a cop/bouncer/whoever?

If you haven't done anything wrong, or nobodyhas any good reason to suspect that you have, there's no justification for any unnecessary search and seizure, which is the sort of thing this falls into - when the "man" can and can't stop you and search you.

There are, of course, exceptions. Bars need to make sure their customers are of legal age or they could lose their liquor license. If there is a problem with fake ID's, then it's reasonable for them to want to have a way to make sure licenses are real. So long as no unique, personal information is stored or accessed for that check, then it's fair. In my opinion anyway, for some people it may not be.

Fingerprints are another matter. That's personal information that is being stored to identify you. To what end? All you wanted to do was go have a drink. This is government paternalism at its most annoying.

I agree with dox - it's surprising that people don't seem to care that their freedom is being taken away a bit at a time. There's no uproar. I find it disturbing.

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Post by Demon » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:17 am

Call me a mindless american if you will, but i personally dont see the big deal yall are talkin about. The only thing I have any fear off when giving out personal info is identity thieft....as far as anything else goes, they can have it...the fuck do i care? Perhaps I would sing a different tune should something happen to me, but for now that is my stance.

Hell, id go as far to say that everyone should be fingerprinted and put in a police database....would help with crimes, sure, seasoned criminals it wouldnt matter for...but for the others...normally the more dangerous ones...it would help.

But hey, what do i know?

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Post by Mango Bob » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:25 am

I have absolutely no problem giving up my finger prints if it lowers the crime rate as it states in that article.

But, I also see where Dox and Ringo are comming from. It is giving up a bit of your freedom, just as showing your ID to a pub/cop like Ringo said.

I can definitely see someone bypassing the fingerprinting system, just as people make fake IDs.
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dox
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Post by dox » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:29 pm

Holyman wrote:what is so wrong about giving your finger prints away isn't it the same as showing your license to someone?
Demon wrote:everyone should be fingerprinted and put in a police database
Mango bob wrote:I have absolutely no problem giving up my finger prints
That all terrifies me, seriously. Ok, I think I quoted Mango out of context for effect :) I think I've got a new mission here now..

Hell, why don't we tap everyone's phones, e-mail and keep them on camera 24/7 while we're at it? If you're not guilty of anything you don't have anything to hide or worry about. With slightly even more advanced technology and combining all of the above your trustworthy governments can even protect you in realtime!

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Post by Coolshot » Mon Oct 23, 2006 12:53 pm

dox wrote:That all terrifies me, seriously.
Got something to hide dox? ;)

I think its a great idea, Id rather the clubs/pubs keep out the wankers, its not a nice site when you people kicking off bottling each other, watching your back every 5 mins incase some idiot bumps into you and starts a fight.
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dox
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Post by dox » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:24 pm

So now you'll only get clobbered @ bars by people that have either a) not been caught before, b) are first time offenders.

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Post by BarSteward » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:35 pm

I think I agree with Dox on this one.

I'm a brit, I hate with a passion all the idiots who are a) incapable of handling their drink - or too stupid to know how much they can drink and b) seem to have 1-2 brain cells max and with b.1) smash up everything they can such as bus stops or b.2) assult other people

It is one reason why I do not live in england anymore and really pity those who have to live in city centres.

However, knowing that the doormen are just older versions of the idiots inside drinking I really don't want to have to give them anything other than a simple acknowledgement of respect. I never give any more information than is truely required. I objected to giving my finger prints to the US Immigration but there was shit all I could do about it.

If you don't want this, drink in a respectable pub where there is no problem with this sort of shit. There are 100,000 s of pubs in the UK 90% are 100 times better than *any* inner city pub. And whats more you can also hear yourself talk to the lovely ladies :P

Bar...
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Post by Shaddowmaster » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:36 pm

and who will be the judge of what is enough to get you put on the "banlist"?

to be honest, I don't mind if they keep the trash out of pubs and bars (not that I go there yet, but I most likely will someday)
but how about taking the prints of the ones that have made reason for it... like the police do, only take prints from people who have commited crimes or may be a suspect...
just that in a pub I doubt there will be "suspects", only guilty and not-guilty people... I mean, it's a different level, if it goes to far it'll obviously become a police issue
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Holyman
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Post by Holyman » Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:20 pm

dox wrote:
Holyman wrote:what is so wrong about giving your finger prints away isn't it the same as showing your license to someone?
Demon wrote:everyone should be fingerprinted and put in a police database
Mango bob wrote:I have absolutely no problem giving up my finger prints
That all terrifies me, seriously. Ok, I think I quoted Mango out of context for effect :) I think I've got a new mission here now..

Hell, why don't we tap everyone's phones, e-mail and keep them on camera 24/7 while we're at it? If you're not guilty of anything you don't have anything to hide or worry about. With slightly even more advanced technology and combining all of the above your trustworthy governments can even protect you in realtime!
How does giving a finger print relate to tapping up phones and e-mail?

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Post by beelzebub » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:49 pm

Tell me this, why the hell do we have licenses? Why do we have Identification? Umm maybe to be OMG Identified!! NO WAY! lol. Showing your ID to a bouncer shows him your age/height/sex/eye color/hair color/birthday. All that information is easy to obtain. You NEED to show a bouncer your ID so he knows whether or not he should let you in. Are you actually thinking that he should go by your word if your of age to drink or not? YEAH RIGHT! Do you know that they will lose their license to sell alcohol if they sell to a minor? It is their damn right to check your ID to see if you are of age.

Scan my fricking ID and have it checked to see if I'm a problem person. As long as the machine and system it runs through is made by the government I'm fine. I could care less if the government wanted to know where and when I go to a bar. As a future pharmacist I know all about patient confidentiality. I can and will lose my license if I disclose information about a patient. The government will just need to set up the same rules. And shit, if that info leaks, who cares, they can't run up any bills on you or take your money. There is a big difference between scanning your drivers license or thumbprint and giving your social security or birth certificate for identification confirmation.

You do realize that you give away all the information someone needs to bill your credit card every time you pay with one at a resturant right? EVERY time I scan someones credit card at my job I can EASILY copy their info down. I can memorize that shit. If I cant memorize it all, I'l keep the first half and wait until the next time this frequent customer comes in to get the rest.

The fact is, if you don't like the way the USA or the UK works, you can leave. You can go to some other country that will have its own problems. You can become a politician and change laws if you want to.
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Post by PhoeniX » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:54 pm

beelzebub wrote:I could care less if the government wanted to know where and when I go to a bar.
Disagreed.
beelzebub wrote:The fact is, if you don't like the way the USA or the UK works, you can leave. You can go to some other country that will have its own problems. You can become a politician and change laws if you want to.
Right.. So what you're saying is that you gotta accept everything in your country and if you do't agree you either leave or become politician to change things. I thought you live in a democracy? #-o

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Post by beelzebub » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:09 pm

You can protest if you like, but you've got to remember that it is a democracy and if you and 20 other people are the only ones protesting, nothing is going to get done. Even if you live in a democracy, its still very hard to change laws. It takes years upon years for laws to be made in the US. Of course if it has something to do about terrorism then its done rather quick lol.

As for me not caring about the bar thing, that was my own opinion, you can disagree with me not caring about something lol.
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RingoCalamity
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Post by RingoCalamity » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:42 pm

I can see both sides of this. The "If you don't have anything to hide, what's your problem?" argument is tough to argue with - and by doing so, you end up looking like you DO have something to hide.

It only works, though, because we take for granted that the government is like us, and they're protecting us from "them" (drunks, terrorists, criminals...liberals? Whoever). What if we are them? Would you care about this sort of thing if you were Muslim? If you had a criminal record? If you had the same name as someone on a no-fly list or terror watch list? What makes it for sure that you're not interesting to the government, and never will be?

Anyway, the usual disclaimer because this is getting a little heated; I'm not attacking anybody here, it's just my point of view, take it or leave it. Just don't tell me to get my GED. :)

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Post by dox » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:36 pm

Ok, off-topic with the national stuff -- fact is if you don't like it you CAN leave but you can also stay behind and try to fix it. What we're talking about here is fingerprinting *everyone* -- I'd surely accept the scanning of licences, the fingerprinting has gone way too far for me. As to "If you don't have anything to hide, what's your problem?" -- I've got plenty to hide and only a tiny bit of it is illegal!

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