Torture?

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ranknfile
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Torture?

Post by ranknfile » Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:11 am

No article or video to start this one off, but...

What's everyone view on the U.S using torture tactics to suspected terrorists and/or convicted terrorists?

I personally feel as if torture is something that should be used to convicted terrorists, and yes for torture for those suspected with some evidence but not processed legally.

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Re: Torture?

Post by Choppo » Mon Apr 27, 2009 10:51 am

Whatever it takes to get the information you need to save lives. When lives are on the line political correctness should go out the window.

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Re: Torture?

Post by dox » Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:47 pm

I believe that in order to properly address the ethical question above one needs to discover whether or not torture is effective in the first place!

As I see it: Information received by means of torture is not 100% accurate, at the very least in empirical terms it can only be as accurate as simply asking somebody for something, I suspect it would be slightly higher. I don't think there is any possible way of finding this out accurately which lands you in to the typical debate as neatly outlined on Wikipedia:
wikipedia wrote:The basic ethical debate is often presented as a matter of deontological versus utilitarian viewpoints. A utilitarian thinker may believe, when the overall outcome of lives saved due to torture are positive, torture can be justified; the intended outcome of an action is held as the primary factor in determining its merit or morality. The opposite view is the deontological, from Greek "deon" (duty), which proposes general rules and values that are to be respected regardless of outcome. However, if the outcome of policies allowing torture are uncertain (or if the outcome can not be definitely traced back to the use of torture) than there can be a utilitarian view that torture is wrong (see issues related to the ends justifying the means in analysis of the ticking time bomb scenario).
So, it's time to line up and determine what kind of country you want to be. I think the utilitarian viewpoint within the context of recent troubles related to and surrounding the USA is weakened due to the degree of error shown by your intelligence sources; they've likely tortured people for the wrong reason, that's OUTSIDE of whether or not torture is an acceptable practice.

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Re: Torture?

Post by skullhead » Mon Apr 27, 2009 2:14 pm

Don't they have drugs for that now? They should whack them out on X before they interogate them. Much more civilized then waterboarding.

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Re: Torture?

Post by lashley » Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:59 pm

its all very well americans commenting on torture, people who have never been tortured, people who have never seen somebody tortured. knowone can say 'whatever it takes to save an american's life' thats not fair. if it was an american being tortured, then their would be outrage. i still agree with the concept of torturing, i feel, as a last resort and subjecting it to the right people, then the means of torture is very viable, just and effective.
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Re: Torture?

Post by Crystal » Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:40 pm

Thats bullshit if I was gonna be tortured they would only have to show me a pair of wires and a battery and I'd sell my grandmother out for a fiver.

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Re: Torture?

Post by redfireant3 » Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:46 am

skullhead wrote:Don't they have drugs for that now? They should whack them out on X before they interogate them. Much more civilized then waterboarding.
word... its simple you do get what you want but:
A. they tell you truth
B. they tell you what you want to hear.
so maybe it would be more fun anyways get em baked and laugh about possible "leads"

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Re: Torture?

Post by Shaddowmaster » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:39 am

lashley wrote:its all very well americans commenting on torture, people who have never been tortured, people who have never seen somebody tortured. knowone can say 'whatever it takes to save an american's life' thats not fair. if it was an american being tortured, then their would be outrage. i still agree with the concept of torturing, i feel, as a last resort and subjecting it to the right people, then the means of torture is very viable, just and effective.
I wouldn't say torture is "just" or that anyone "deserve" it. I mean, this leads back to the good ol' "good vs bad" debate. Whether the person subjected to torture deserve it or not is just a matter of opinion. Also, you can't know for sure if torture is "justified" before you actually get any results from the torture that indicate that so is the case. And even then, the possibility that they just tell you what you want to hear to make it stop exists, as redfireant pointed out.

In my eyes, Torture is a bad method. Sure, it gives results sometimes. Sometimes even very fast and efficient. But it's a very messy and unsure method. And intelligence gained through torture can never be completely trusted, it puts anyone who is suppose to act on it at risk.

And of course there are double standards when it comes to torture. It's all just a matter of looking out for number 1. :)
You don't want to be tortured yourself, so you prefer that either no one does it, or that your kin does it first so the "enemy" can't get a chance to do it to you

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Re: Torture?

Post by mini » Wed Apr 29, 2009 12:15 pm

well, its a lively one so far.

i AGREE with torture, having interviewed close friends in the military. Who have been in the field and lost friends etc....
One thing that comes up again and again is the question of morals, and who has them.
Does the same enemy that cuts off heads of journalists and innocent people seemingly on a regular basis, review their policy on torture, no.
Are these people intimidated by our torture tactics, no.
Do the methods we use work, no.
Is it time to revisit a more human method, like drugs, yes.
DO the ends justify the means, no.
In the end the issue seems bunk because the information gained so far has not helped the war against the taliban or AL Queada.
As far as i feel its a step it up issue or discontinue.
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Re: Torture?

Post by Choppo » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:17 am

There are cases where it has helped. It led to information that thwarted an attack on Los Angeles.

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Re: Torture?

Post by mini » Thu Apr 30, 2009 11:59 am

Choppo wrote:There are cases where it has helped. It led to information that thwarted an attack on Los Angeles.
i was unaware there had been an attempt on los angeles, then i revert my statement, yes there is effective means in torture.
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Re: Torture?

Post by dox » Thu Apr 30, 2009 1:08 pm

You can also kill birds by setting fire to a forest; no need for BBQ!

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Re: Torture?

Post by ent » Thu Apr 30, 2009 2:39 pm

Choppo wrote:There are cases where it has helped. It led to information that thwarted an attack on Los Angeles.
sorry friendo but you can't just go around saying silly things like that without posting sources!

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Re: Torture?

Post by dox » Thu Apr 30, 2009 6:29 pm

3ntropy wrote:
Choppo wrote:There are cases where it has helped. It led to information that thwarted an attack on Los Angeles.
sorry friendo but you can't just go around saying silly things like that without posting sources!
I'm fairly certain he's referring to: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archiv ... y_torture/

Of course if you dig even the slightest amount look closely at who says what on the subject you'll notice that it's the same old crews playing out their roles of polarity and to the objective, reasonable observer: another chunk of crap.

What happened to non-politicized, proper debate? The amount of people blindly taking other people's words for their opinions makes me sick to my stomach: use your heads! If you can't, then don't bother, or go to school, or at the very least learn the Socratic method or something that will encourage rational thinking. These 'facts' and 'beliefs' are an embarrassing and unacceptable replacement for reason.

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Re: Torture?

Post by alexskii » Tue Jun 23, 2009 10:33 pm

I can only really see one way to look at this subject or those like it; to put myself in the situation...
I think torture is a disgusting practice..

But i also cant imagine an alternative.
Yes it produces false answers from people to end it...
but in my mind there would be a chance that it could reveal the truth...and what value could that bring in saving other lives?

A moral dilemma which im fortunate enough not to have to decide between, i honestly dont know what i would chose given the choice if i was in the situation. One of the things ive always found bothering about history is the hindsight allowing people to make judgements about others decisions based on what they see after the event, being completely removed from it makes it easy to form a snap judgement on the "right or wrong" of the act, not actually experiencing the concequences either way.

If i were faced with a terrorist i had on suspicion of planting a bomb in an unknown location (could be a school, could be a power station or an empty building, who knows) i truly believe i would torture that person if i felt i could stop that act from happening. I dont agree with doing so, but i dont see an alternative, assuming psychology and guilt has failed. Chosing to live between having tortured a potentially innocent person, and having the deaths of potentially hundreds on my mind, the decision on the spot would be in favour of torture. My decision in rhetoric would be against it.

As much as i would like to say i would not do so unconditionally blahblah, i think that faced with the alternatives, i would feel i had no other option.

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