China

Philosophy and Politics, from Aristotle to Trudeau, discussions that cover the gamut from civilizations, societies, how they're run and why we're here.

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dox
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China

Post by dox » Tue Jan 18, 2011 4:03 pm

..I'm quite excited/curious about Hu Jintao's visit to the US. I love this opener from the CNN article: "How do you deal toughly with your bank?". What better way to put it? China has gone from being the default "coming soon superpower" to a bonafide "we're here superpower". From economic to political power it's all there and pretty humbling when European and North Americans take a good look at what they're doing (aside from the obvious human rights issues). Personally I'm most impressed by things like their rail system; faster/better/cheaper than any of us could have ever built (and hell, NAs could really use something like it!) which has transformed their citizens lives from being farmers to pet food entrepreneurs (get started reading here) through to their space program and even their stealth fighter.

My mind has been blown a few times as a result and I really find myself wondering how the US/CHN relationship is going to end up, it feels like the tables have been turned but no one wants to really admit it. How do you deal toughly with your bank? I know I'll be watching and taking notes!

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Re: China

Post by BlackHawk5 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:03 pm

The tables are far from turned. They certainly are a superpower, but their power is undermined by their human rights issues, pollution, currency manipulation, generation gaps, & One Child policy. IMO they (& their people) will be hurting in the long run. I'm concerned for the future of the human race on Planet Earth with countries like China in a superpower position.

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Re: China

Post by Bradders » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:22 pm

The chinese are coming along but i think they many have stolen some designs!

The Chinese J-20
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American F-22
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lol
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dox
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Re: China

Post by dox » Tue Jan 18, 2011 6:59 pm

Thing is, they're really keen to do exactly that -- rail network: they would get the first bits built out elsewhere (no one place for all parts; they spread it out - the goal being to make themselves profit, not anyone else) and delivered, kind of Ikea style. As they became more savvy in that area they began to learn how to make the parts themselves, rapidly replacing every player on the line and ending up with a highly efficient/affordable way to 'develop' technology within their own borders. I am not aware of any such infrastructural effort taking place recently on any other continent; the Chinese just pwnt everyone on that one. Sure the J-20 looks like the F-22 but who cares? Fact is: they can crank these out on their own, it's not at all a technology that's exclusive to the US/EU any longer and they're totally ramping up their abilities without becoming reliant on the rest of the world.

As to human rights issues, pollution, financial manipulation, one child policies and the lot: heck, it's a battle for 1st place between the US and China for top polluter, the one child thing seems extreme but is an example of their ability to deprive themselves of something they want/love so as to reduce their liability; a very responsible position for a country with such a massive population - contrast by trying to take away SUVs from Americans. I think you'll find peers on all the other issues whenever you actually look. If the tables haven't turned then they are teetering on their edges waiting to tip over to the Chinese side. Years of failed diplomatic/economic relations also mean that the US will be rather impotent when it comes to trying to put the table back as it was. As to being concerned about the future of the human race; I'm equally worried with either US or China (or a bunch more) being in power, I am however inspired by someone actually taking bold, hard steps toward trying to make things better.

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Re: China

Post by Hans » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:58 pm

Comparing China to the USA should start with civil liberties. They pick people up in the night and slaughter them like pigs. We don't. That's all I need to know.
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Re: China

Post by dox » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:38 am

Hans wrote:Comparing China to the USA should start with civil liberties. They pick people up in the night and slaughter them like pigs. We don't. That's all I need to know.
If it were a one dimensional comparison and such a thing as correlation didn't exist I'd be right there agreeing with you! (Though you'd also have to prove that you don't do the same :)) I'm admitting to totally ignoring these kinds of issues within the context of this thread probably because whatever we think about how they treat their people will have zero meaning when they control the markets, the skies, the culture, etc. ..something they are positioned to do right now regardless of how many people they might take to slaughter on a nightly basis.. Aside from terrible things they are also doing awesome things that we've even stopped dreaming about because of red tape or political jousting..

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Re: China

Post by Hans » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:24 am

Opps, I missed that this was in the politics section. Disregard. #-o
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Re: China

Post by Ranger » Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:25 pm

Bradders, that's the way it is with practically everything. When the British first began the industrial revolution in Europe, artisans fled with technical knowledge which was then shared with the rest of Europe. For a period of time, everything was being done with British equipment and British methods. Same with RTS video games; once someone discovers a new amazing strategy, it gets adopted by other players. People always take what's been made and try to make it better. Countries like China don't necessarily need to innovate if another country like the United States will develop better tech and they can just reproduce it.

Slightly off topic from the subject of China increasing its power and sphere of influence, but just wanted to state this.

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Re: China

Post by WolfPack » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:18 am

To be perfectly honest, any political system which forces and limits their country's economic and technological development is doomed to fail. Russia tried to open its economy in the 60-70's and often reverse engineered American technology militarily and industrially. You can go on and say that they don't have to do work so long as we do it for them, but if there is one thing the American people respond well to, its pressure. When it comes to it, the only reason that china is building up its industrial strength, is to support it's still exploding population and their needs. They can not support both a huge standing army in open conflict, and their population at the same time. They are trying to weaken the United States through economics, and were are just starting to hit a stride again.

Lets talk military strength, their standing army is huge, theres no getting around that. But as far as their naval strength and air force development go, they cant compete with the NATO pact countries and the UN. Their new stealth fighter is great yay, but how do they plan on producing that and all the other projects on their plate. Their navy lacks foward operating bases in the and around the Taiwan straight, north korea would most likely lend them there's but how are you going to convert some of the most rundown and obsolete ports to support a huge submarine fleet. They can not reach the united states with strategic bombers in most cases, we have the best air defense system in the world and bases throughout the Atlantic and Pacific. There standing army is useless unless they can use their almost non existent navy which is developed for coastal and short range operation to reach the united states, and by then we would see it coming. They could invade neighboring countries, but that would only hurt them, if they do that it would threaten major world players. Strikes against there industrial centers would yield great problems for them in terms of supplies and available food for their citizens and soldiers. most of their borders are mountainous, preventing an attack from either side, again benefiting the stronger navy. A NATO led invasion comprising major European powers and including India, and Japan (they dont have a large standing army, but their logistical support and supplemental destroyer/frigate fleet would enhance sub hunting, they also have an edge in the field of Electronic Warfare) and even possibly russia depending on China's initial actions. Would attack from the see after softening the invasion point with bombing, and securing the immediate coastal area, would push inland and maintain a beachhead at a prominent port allowing more movement. Their air force would be suppressed by ours. From their it gets ugly, fearing possible defeat they might employ nuclear weapons, or they may choose to fight till the last man.

btw this is my opinion
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An army of sheep led by a lion, can defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

How much we ought to dread the jaws of hell, if the jaws of so small an animal as a wolf can make a whole city tremble through fear

WolfPack
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Re: China

Post by WolfPack » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:22 am

Bradders wrote:The chinese are coming along but i think they many have stolen some designs!

The Chinese J-20
Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

American F-22
Image

lol
REALLY, flip the J put a line through it and add another 2 to that number.
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An army of sheep led by a lion, can defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

How much we ought to dread the jaws of hell, if the jaws of so small an animal as a wolf can make a whole city tremble through fear

Holyman
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Re: China

Post by Holyman » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:57 am

I like how something talking about what china are doing right and how they are now a super power has turned into a herp de derp who can kill each other the bestest thread.
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WolfPack
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Re: China

Post by WolfPack » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:18 am

Generally the topic title determines what a thread is about, China is a pretty broad topic.
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An army of sheep led by a lion, can defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

How much we ought to dread the jaws of hell, if the jaws of so small an animal as a wolf can make a whole city tremble through fear

Holyman
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Re: China

Post by Holyman » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:09 am

WolfPack wrote:Generally the topic title determines what a thread is about, China is a pretty broad topic.
So if the title topic says "Sewers" and in my post I write only about how awesome unicorns are would that mean the thread is about sewers?
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WolfPack
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Re: China

Post by WolfPack » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:16 pm

alright if there happened to be awesome unicorns in the sewers then you would, its thread about china, i posted my views on CHINA
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An army of sheep led by a lion, can defeat an army of lions led by a sheep.

How much we ought to dread the jaws of hell, if the jaws of so small an animal as a wolf can make a whole city tremble through fear

dox
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Re: China

Post by dox » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:43 pm

WolfPack wrote:To be perfectly honest, any political system which forces and limits their country's economic and technological development is doomed to fail.
Unsubstantiated! So you're saying China is doomed to fail?! In what way? Are you saying that the USA has succeeded!? In what way?

In my experience the number one thing that pisses people off about China is their capitalism.

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