Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Philosophy and Politics, from Aristotle to Trudeau, discussions that cover the gamut from civilizations, societies, how they're run and why we're here.

Moderator: Staff

justice7ca
Prolific
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:17 am

Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:15 pm

This is a dark topic, soooo only stay if you are desensitized to such things.

There are a few reasons why I think this man is insane. The first of which, he's created a delusion about himself and his cause. Based on who he's targest as his victims, he's made illogical connections between the labour party, the teens/children at the camp and multiculturalism. He drew another illogical conclusion when he thought this would actually do something about the problem he saw.

I think a lot of people are confused and baffled as to why someone would do what he'd done on that island, but insanity knows no boundaries. If he was a militant christian as he says he is, he would have never harmed the innocent.

A lot of insane people have delusions based on reality, based on truths, but somewhere you will always be able to find that jump in logic, where they've made a mental connection that isn't really there. I think we'll find this to be true with Brevik, and I'm willing to bet by the end of the trial, he will be crushed by his own realization that he's committed mass murder and nothing more. (IF he realizes his delusion, come to think of it.. that's unlikely to happen).
[url=http://www.crackclan.com][img]http://i.imgur.com/PEYhp.png[/img][/url]

dox
Prolific
Posts: 18732
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:20 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by dox » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:25 pm

Fact: there are (at least) two "realities"

1. "REALITY"

2. "YOUR REALITY"

Everyone has their own version of reality. It takes conscious effort and re-enforcement of this realization to properly understand the above and be able to rectify the two. I believe that the vast majority of people don't do this (they live in their version of reality) and thus, I don't believe that this is "insane" behaviour (though I think you're definitely off-kilter/naive/fail if you don't remind yourself everyday that your perception and what's actually going on are quite different things). Most people are persistently self-deluded ("I tried hard to find a job", "I'm a great singer", "Everything is fine", "It's their fault, not mine", etc) and the degrees certainly vary but I know several people right now that have fantasies just as wild and acted upon (but not anywhere near as violently psychopathic) as this Brevik person.

justice7ca
Prolific
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:17 am

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:37 pm

Absolutely agree, I am quite constantly reminded that other people do indeed see things differently (the YOUR reality part, thanks to my SO who works in the psych field.. it's amazing the perspective that world can give you). Who's justified and who is not is really a matter of perception, but it comes down to the perception and reality of civilisation as a whole, rather than the individual.

If everyone thought the same as Brevik, perhaps he then would not be considered 'insane', I think maybe this trial will have a lot more to do with the definition of Sanity than about issues of multiculturalism and ethnocentrism in Europe.

He insists that he's sane, logical and calculating. While he is logical and calculating, in my opinion, he's working from a set of values and morals that are in-congruent with the population around him. That in my opinion, makes it look like he's actually insane, or we are.
[url=http://www.crackclan.com][img]http://i.imgur.com/PEYhp.png[/img][/url]

Mojo
Intermediate poster
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:13 pm

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Mojo » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:43 pm

I dont think Brevik will have any amazing epiphany making his "reality" come down. He spent a very long time planning and preparing for what he did and he has already expressed remorse for what he saw as a "necessary evil" to achieve his goals. He had intended the bomb to take out the entire government building in the city centre and for that to be the centrepiece of his attack but found bomb making more difficult than he had anticipated so the island became the worst part of his actions. He has claimed he is part of a wider movement and that he has taken the first step. I think he will remain steadfast in his beliefs all the way to the gallows.

If anything should come from this (and im sure many Americans will disagree) i think they should make it much much harder for people to obtain such dangerous firearms whose sole purpose is killing people. This attack and others (like Columbine High School) would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, to carry out with stricter gun control. Try and kill so many people with a knife and see how far u get.

Smithy
Prolific
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:33 pm
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Smithy » Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:54 pm

No way... You know what a Lock does? Keeps Honest people out! Why take away guns from honest people. Imho if every person was given a weapon and trained. I would really really really have to be desperate to commit a crime when i know there is a high chance that multiple people will be packing heat and i probably wont be coming back alive.
Image

Mojo
Intermediate poster
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:13 pm

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Mojo » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:06 pm

Are u saying that only honest people can get guns legally?

If im gonna commit a crime and i think the people im robbing could kill me id kill all of them first and any cops that tried to arrest me cos the prison sentences in America are so draconian that id do anything to make sure i wasnt caught.

Why do honest people need guns? For fun? For defending your home against armed intruders? Its a fallacy to think that if everyone in the whole country (except the dishonest people) have a gun that everyone is safer. What if im carrying my legally owned concealed firearm when someone spills my pint or looks at my girlfriend?

justice7ca
Prolific
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:17 am

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:15 pm

Mojo wrote:Are u saying that only honest people can get guns legally?

If im gonna commit a crime and i think the people im robbing could kill me id kill all of them first and any cops that tried to arrest me cos the prison sentences in America are so draconian that id do anything to make sure i wasnt caught.

Why do honest people need guns? For fun? For defending your home against armed intruders? Its a fallacy to think that if everyone in the whole country (except the dishonest people) have a gun that everyone is safer. What if im carrying my legally owned concealed firearm when someone spills my pint or looks at my girlfriend?
You guys are both highlighting something discussed above, REALITY and YOUR REALITY. You're both technically right, and both have logical solutions to the same problem. It's a matter of perspective, and from Smithy's perspective, he feels safer having guns. From Mojo's perspective, i'm sure he hasn't seen many guns and feels safer because the criminals around him often don't have guns either.

So really, you both have valid points about the topic -- only one difference, there are already guns in America and taking them away means civil war. The only other way to take them away, is to convince them to give them up -- and with a country full of Smithy's, I don't see that happening. So gun laws in the United States are very different from the rest of the world, even here in Canada.

In Canada, the biggest problem of owning guns is that you're more likely to get robbed if you have them. Criminals like stolen weapons.
[url=http://www.crackclan.com][img]http://i.imgur.com/PEYhp.png[/img][/url]

Mojo
Intermediate poster
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:13 pm

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Mojo » Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:31 pm

Ur right Justice. Ive had very little contact with guns. Shotguns are the easiest firearm to get here followed by rifles but only criminals would have handguns or anything else outside of a gun club. Im from Northern Ireland and there are very strict gun laws here due to the paramilitaries. People still get shot but it Brevik or the Columbine killers would have had to have made contact with organised crime to obtain the weapons they used and it is much harder to get the type of semi automatic weapons they used to kill so many people.

U are also right the America is inundated with guns and im not offering any type of solution to that problem. I know how people there feel about their "right to bear arms" and its a situation that wont change without a drastic change of attitude from the people there. They were able to demonise smokers and ban smoking in public places but trying to take guns off people is a more sensitive subject it seems.

Anyway this tragedy happened in Norway which doesnt have anywhere near the crime problems America does and i think it could be a good solution for them.

Smithy
Prolific
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:33 pm
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Smithy » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:08 pm

Well it is also against the law to brandish a weapon with out the intent to use it. SO if some one does pull out there weapon just about any one in the area has the right to drop there ass. I also dont really think that every would be criminal is willing to go out and gun down 3 people to rob a 7 to eleven etc. The people who are already doing Hard crimes have the intent on killing already.

And My logic like i said.. IF you lock your front door WHO does that KEEP out. Sure the fuck not the criminals, Just honest people who are already following the law. By putting more gun control laws in place you are only making it harder for honest people to get a weapon to protect themselves. Criminals are not following the laws they are going to get a gun one way or another.

AND BTW i own one gun and its more of a collectors piece then a weapon. So dont judge that i am a gun toting redneck :P

My Texas co worker sent me this one time
Image

Smithy
Prolific
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:33 pm
Location: New Mexico
Contact:

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Smithy » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:13 pm

Mojo wrote: U are also right the America is inundated with guns and im not offering any type of solution to that problem. I know how people there feel about their "right to bear arms" and its a situation that wont change without a drastic change of attitude from the people there. They were able to demonise smokers and ban smoking in public places but trying to take guns off people is a more sensitive subject it seems..
Smoking is one thing. But alot of people are very very hard about there ways because of our history. A people who is unarmed cannot defend themselves if the government becomes corrupt. Imho its just another part of the "checks and balance" system of the USA.

I believe its Sweden? Not sure but one of those countrys has required military training and issues its civilians rifles so that a militia for country defense can be formed quickly. They are trained on how to use and properly handle their weapons. Believe it or not the crime rate is pretty low also.

Edit Switzerland is the one.. Here is a WIKI on it
Image

dox
Prolific
Posts: 18732
Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2003 2:20 am
Location: Canada
Contact:

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by dox » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:36 pm

Something tells me someone is living in THEIR reality :) -- Dude, our governments have proven time and time again that they are corrupt, they continually suppress freedom of speech, they remain well ahead of the populace in terms of controlling public gatherings, they drown you in all types of fear tactics and propaganda to keep you inside and changing the channel if you see news you don't like. Don't think for a second that if you and your community decide that you need to protect your country from a corrupt government that you won't be put down with a bullet in the head or smoked in like they did in Waco. If guns are your answer to a "checks and balance" system then don't be surprised when you find yourself hopelessly fucked. Try a multi-party system, try changing your electoral system, try going to a protest, try getting involved, try writing real letters to your representatives, try to raise money and do some lobbying of your own, try putting out a newsletter.. But if you think that having a gun is all the insurance you need to try to make your place a better one to live then.. well.. I'm glad to be far away from you :P Guns are for shooting things, they're terrible at changing people's minds except for taking them from out of the inside of their natural casing.

I don't think access to guns is the problem -- anyone determined to get access to one can, regardless of how well your government controls it. I think it's a social issue we're covering here, it's another one that has no 100% fix: you'll always have freak out psychos that randomly kill people. If they can't get guns then they'll resort to poison or whatever twisted thing they can get their hands on.

(EDIT: Also, Canada has a very high responsible gun ownership rate, we don't have the violence some of the other countries do. Some cultures are just seemingly predisposed to making that switch from having a tool through to turning it in to a weapon against humans. South Africa, Columbia, Brazil, Mexico, United States and a bunch more are, for whatever reason, just more likely to kill someone with a bullet.)

justice7ca
Prolific
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:17 am

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:50 pm

dox wrote:I think it's a social issue we're covering here
indeed it is. The outcome of the social issues being discussed now in the world, and with government changes and most western nations moving toward a world government and a militarized police force, we're basically going to choose between a dystopian or a utopian civilisation. In order to do that, we need to agree upon the laws which will govern it. Resistance to this change will be the next great conflict imo, but the best course of action is dialogue, paying attention, not changing that channel and asking questions. Otherwise, we'll get that Dystopian future.
Welcome. Welcome, to City 17. You have chosen, or been chosen, to relocate to one of our finest remaining urban centers. I thought so much of City 17, that I elected to establish my administration, here, in the citadel, so thoughtfully provided by our benefactors. I am proud to call City 17 my home. And so, whether you are here to stay, or passing through to parts unknown, welcome, to City 17. It's safer here.
Last edited by justice7ca on Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
[url=http://www.crackclan.com][img]http://i.imgur.com/PEYhp.png[/img][/url]

Crystal
Prolific
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:55 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Crystal » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:50 pm

This guy's a criminal and needs to be locked up - however:

I don't think this guy is insane at all - I dislike the way he's being branded as a loony and the media coverage is as shocking as ever. He's a criminal and that's that.

Islamic extremists do this shit on a daily basis with suicide bombs etc - and we just call them terrorists / extremists - you never hear them being called insane!!!! Look at Harold Shipman, 'one of the most prolific serial killers in recorded history' with over 200 victims - did he get branded insane? No. He was given 15 life sentances. A gun or a syringe? No difference I don't think.

When muslim extremists pull this shit, they are 'religious fanatics'. When christian extremists pull it - they are 'insane'. Just a point to discuss perhaps?

One other thing I'm not happy with is the televised trial. If your going to televise a trial - televise the whole thing. Don't censor out parts that you don't want people to hear - like his reasons for doing what he did, or any of his evidence. I feel like I'm being manipulated in a way, and I don't like it.

As for the debate on guns... guns don't kill people. People kill people, but automatic weapons in the private sector - absolutely uneccessary. Ban the lot.

justice7ca
Prolific
Posts: 976
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2011 3:17 am

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:57 pm

Crystal wrote:This guy's a criminal and needs to be locked up - however:

I don't think this guy is insane at all - I dislike the way he's being branded as a loony and the media coverage is as shocking as ever. He's a criminal and that's that.

Islamic extremists do this shit on a daily basis with suicide bombs etc - and we just call them terrorists / extremists - you never hear them being called insane!!!! Look at Harold Shipman, 'one of the most prolific serial killers in recorded history' with over 200 victims - did he get branded insane? No. He was given 15 life sentances. A gun or a syringe? No difference I don't think.

When muslim extremists pull this shit, they are 'religious fanatics'. When christian extremists pull it - they are 'insane'. Just a point to discuss perhaps?

One other thing I'm not happy with is the televised trial. If your going to televise a trial - televise the whole thing. Don't censor out parts that you don't want people to hear - like his reasons for doing what he did, or any of his evidence. I feel like I'm being manipulated in a way, and I don't like it.

As for the debate on guns... guns don't kill people. People kill people, but automatic weapons in the private sector - absolutely uneccessary. Ban the lot.
Saw that Reddit post too, did you? :)

Suicide bombers, I would argue, are not sane either. Here, strap this to your chest, believe in Allah and you will be saved. Trust me. (see the gap in logic here?). Christian, Muslim or not; I'd still wager he thinks something is true, in his mind, that the majority of others do not share.

The simple fact that he has a cause, to kill civilians (and not just simply to get off on killing), makes him delusional. It's an emotional topic, and a lot of people tend to get angry enough to not let him slide on an insanity plea, because his crimes ARE horrible. However to do what he did, requires a mind capable of connecting dots that don't exist to everyone else. The same goes for muslim extremists, except they are kind of in a group cult mindset of insanity, which is another topic altogether because Brevik acted alone (or so we think).

I'm armchairing here, ultimately the courts will decide... but it's an interesting topic nonetheless.

I believe he will be put in an asylum, and never released. Feels like an old OJ Simpson trial pool... hmm.. ;p
[url=http://www.crackclan.com][img]http://i.imgur.com/PEYhp.png[/img][/url]

Crystal
Prolific
Posts: 1997
Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:55 pm
Location: Southampton, UK
Contact:

Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Crystal » Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:46 pm

Actually I never look on Reddit - but link me, i'm interested!

I'm not liking the way that it seems if you believe in god and commit atrocities in that name you are exempt from being branded insane.

One other thing: Governments no doubt eliminate political adversaries via 'clandestine' means. I think it would be foolish to believe it doesn't go on. Is Anders Behring Breivik any different, just because he serves a right wing agenda, and committed these acts of his own volition rather than with the 'unofficial blessing' of an administration?

I'm just opening up discussion points here, he's committed crimes and deserves to pay for them. I know what our forums can be like so it's best to be prepared for a backlash!

Post Reply