Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

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Smithy
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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Smithy » Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:29 pm

dox wrote:Something tells me someone is living in THEIR reality :) -- Dude, our governments have proven time and time again that they are corrupt, they continually suppress freedom of speech, they remain well ahead of the populace in terms of controlling public gatherings, they drown you in all types of fear tactics and propaganda to keep you inside and changing the channel if you see news you don't like. Don't think for a second that if you and your community decide that you need to protect your country from a corrupt government that you won't be put down with a bullet in the head or smoked in like they did in Waco. If guns are your answer to a "checks and balance" system then don't be surprised when you find yourself hopelessly fucked. Try a multi-party system, try changing your electoral system, try going to a protest, try getting involved, try writing real letters to your representatives, try to raise money and do some lobbying of your own, try putting out a newsletter.. But if you think that having a gun is all the insurance you need to try to make your place a better one to live then.. well.. I'm glad to be far away from you :P Guns are for shooting things, they're terrible at changing people's minds except for taking them from out of the inside of their natural casing.
Aww yeah.. I didnt really explain myself well enough. Do i think owning a gun protects me from the government or helps keep them in check absolutely not plus a HELL no considering they have you know tanks and planes etc. What I was getting at is the right to bear arms and to have a "armed" public is a staple of the USA. The people were repressed by Britain in the colonial times by means of the powder embargo and before that by kings who tried to disarm their subjects. So when the USA wrote The Bill of Rights/Constitution the second amendment was to allow citizens the right to bear arms to protect themselves from enemy's of the State, and the State itself if it should become corrupt.

Do i really think this is hugely relevant with modern day society and technology.. Ehh not really but that is what i meant by "checks and balance" and it still probably not clear.
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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by redfireant3 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:04 pm

aside from the flamethread :-" ,

I don't think he is "insane" I think he severely wants attention to his cause, just look at how he is soaking up all this media publicity. I do think what he did was insane and cowardly. If he was truly insane he would not be able to carry out the level of planning that he did.

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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by dox » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:08 pm

Though I lack the knowledge to state with any degree of correctness, I was under the impression that "insanity" is such a broad concept and one could very well be functional in one way but debilitated in another. In other words: it is possible that a properly insane person could plan stuff'n'things... ?

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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by redfireant3 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:15 pm

I had to wiki that too
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insanity
"Its a madness describing a spectrum of behaviors or violations of societal norms." I mean yeah what he did was insane but again he isn't flinging poo in the courtroom, he is well spoken and aware he carried out the actions that he did.

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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Tue Apr 24, 2012 11:43 pm

dox wrote:Though I lack the knowledge to state with any degree of correctness, I was under the impression that "insanity" is such a broad concept and one could very well be functional in one way but debilitated in another. In other words: it is possible that a properly insane person could plan stuff'n'things... ?
Exactly this. I think perhaps, insane and criminally responsible both apply. Rather than him being insane and criminally irresponsible, there apparently is a difference.
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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Mojo » Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:31 pm

justice7ca wrote:Suicide bombers, I would argue, are not sane either. Here, strap this to your chest, believe in Allah and you will be saved. Trust me. (see the gap in logic here?). Christian, Muslim or not; I'd still wager he thinks something is true, in his mind, that the majority of others do not share.

The simple fact that he has a cause, to kill civilians (and not just simply to get off on killing), makes him delusional.
Just because what someone else believes goes against all of your fundamental beliefs about life and what it means to be human does not mean that they are insane. Suicide bombers could be perfectly nice friendly people who love their family but their religious beliefs makes them think its a good idea for them to give their life for their cause and their people. Just because u cant see the logic in it doesnt mean it doesnt make sense to them.

Wanting to kill civilians who are ethnically or religiously different to you does not make you delusional, just bigoted and filled with hated.

They believe they are doing what Allah wants them to do and that they will be rewarded in the afterlife. Are they insane for believing in Islam and trusting their religious leaders? Christians killed many Muslims in the crusades because they thought it was the right thing to do and there are many ongoing wars currently along religious divides. If someone kills for their religion are they insane? If a soldier kills for his government is he insane? What is the difference between a political leader ordering you to kill and a religious one? What if your political leaders are also your religious leaders?

I could easily label anyone who believes in anything that has no evidence of its existence and requires faith to believe in it, eg: religion, ghosts, alien visitors or elves, as insane but in truth they are not. They just believe something that is incredibly unlikely to be true or real. Brevik has beliefs that make no sense to me or you but that doesn’t mean he didn’t know exactly what he was doing which, in my opinion, doesn’t make him insane.

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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:03 pm

Mojo wrote: Just because what someone else believes goes against all of your fundamental beliefs about life and what it means to be human does not mean that they are insane. Suicide bombers could be perfectly nice friendly people who love their family but their religious beliefs makes them think its a good idea for them to give their life for their cause and their people. Just because u cant see the logic in it doesnt mean it doesnt make sense to them.

Wanting to kill civilians who are ethnically or religiously different to you does not make you delusional, just bigoted and filled with hated.

They believe they are doing what Allah wants them to do and that they will be rewarded in the afterlife. Are they insane for believing in Islam and trusting their religious leaders? Christians killed many Muslims in the crusades because they thought it was the right thing to do and there are many ongoing wars currently along religious divides. If someone kills for their religion are they insane? If a soldier kills for his government is he insane? What is the difference between a political leader ordering you to kill and a religious one? What if your political leaders are also your religious leaders?

I could easily label anyone who believes in anything that has no evidence of its existence and requires faith to believe in it, eg: religion, ghosts, alien visitors or elves, as insane but in truth they are not. They just believe something that is incredibly unlikely to be true or real. Brevik has beliefs that make no sense to me or you but that doesn’t mean he didn’t know exactly what he was doing which, in my opinion, doesn’t make him insane.
Well, as I'd stated a group delusion or cult mindset doesn't apply when comparing to Brevik because he acted alone.
Also, I understand what you're saying -- and I'm of the opinion everyone is a little bit crazy so to speak. Superstition, reading horoscopes, believing anything that isn't true could technically be considered 'insane', but not every insane person needs to be locked away, nor is every insane thought every day people have should be considered a threat to society. When it involves guns, and killing -- that's a threat or menace.

With Brevik I find it's more in the extreme sense, rather than the slippery slope of calling everyone insane for thinking differently. This isn't a minor case of insanity or someone believing in fairies, this is someone who gunned down 60 some teenagers. I would think any 'sane' person could see that it's wrong no matter what your cause is, and I'd happily be one to defend the innocent and say that they don't deserve to be killed for ANY reason, no matter what; they're innocent.

Calling Brevik sane is also akin to acknowledging his cause, and THAT, is a slippery slope.
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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by dox » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:17 pm

What this guy did was most certainly criminal, so where do you draw the line between criminal and insane? Is it just criminal or is it insane to kill 1 person? What about 5? According to you, at what point does it become insane?

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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Smithy » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:23 pm

I think the definition of Sane in the mater of courts is that The person being charged is mentally stable enough to understand what he/she are being charged with. Regardless of moral stand points or beliefs of society and the defendant . Killing some one is against the law (for the most part self defense,war etc)
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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by dox » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:28 pm

That's what I thought -- so, in this sense, this guy isn't insane. Simple?

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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Smithy » Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:45 pm

I would agree Dox not insane
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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by Mojo » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:08 pm

I take your point Justice but i think its because you are obviously a good natured person that you arent thinking like Brevik was and that is why you think he was insane.

He saw a problem in his country namely immigrants. He wanted to do something drastic about it that would leave a lasting impression on his country and the world that would change things, as he saw them, for the better. His solution was akin to Hitler's "final solution" for his problem with the Jews except Hitler decided to try and kill as many Jews as he could. Brevik decided to attack the people in his country that he saw as politically responsibile for allowing immigration so he decided to kill as many of them as he could to stop those that were going to be future law makers and to make others afraid to be left wing or liberal.

Dox made a good point that just because you decide to "solve" your problem with murder doesnt mean you are insane regardless of numbers. If someone decides to solve their financial problems by murdering their wife and collecting life insurance they arent considered insane even though they murdered someone they loved (most likely) at one time. Quite possibly psychopathic but that doesnt make you insane in the eyes of the law. I dont think that the number of people he killed makes him more likely to be insane than someone who has only killed once.


Brevik was giving a salute in the trial when he entered the courtroom and one of the victims families asked him to stop and he did. He has said he was sorry he had to do what he did but that he felt he had to do it to achieve his goals. This sounds calculating and rational to me and I think if someone is devoid of compassion they are capable of horrific acts that seem insane if u judge them based on your own morals but if you have no care or regard for the lives of others (as a psychopath wouldn’t) then it could make perfect sense.

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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Wed Apr 25, 2012 4:47 pm

i guess the gist of it is I can't comprehend, nor understand why he came to that conclusion to commit the acts he did, even with his concerns and justification.
What's really unclear is the legal definition of insane. What I think what we all agree on is that he's guilty in a criminal sense.

Also interesting is that there have been examinations done on Brevik, with two completely separate outcomes (insane and not insane). Therefor, it's going to be anyone's guess as to what the courts will eventually decide, but I could see it having an impact on future similar incidents as this is a globally covered case.

Also, fantastic discussion =D>
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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by justice7ca » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:21 pm

aaand the verdict is in
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/24/world/eur ... ?hpt=hp_t1

Ruled Sane and given 21 years
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Re: Brevik Trial - Insane or no?

Post by redfireant3 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 1:27 pm

BOOM!!

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